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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 10:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Armor tanking has been and still is the superior of the two. "Punished for using plates" lol....How??? Ferroscale plates have no movement penalty and they yield more hp than shield extenders, while utilizing less cpu/pg at the same time.
Why do people always insist on directly comparing these two based purely on HP?
The inherent regen of shields is the counterbalance to this. Nobody fits 5x ferros because it's a completely awful fit, while 5x extenders is actually viable. Why? Because shields actually have a reasonable regen rate built-in while armour has a pitiful base regen. Regenerating 2 health a second out of a health pool of 700 is simply a stupid fit, while having a delayed regen of ~40 HP/s works and can work well, even.
Directly comparing ferros with shield extenders and going 'armour is better becuz it has big numbers' is a moronic comparison.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 11:50:00 -
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Gaius Calinus wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:
Last I recall armor doesn't come back from 0 to full in 5-8 seconds...
Armor isn't gone and the one wearing it dead after a single loaded ScrR shot neither.
Neither is shields unless you didn't tank it at all. 'Oh noes, an anti-shield weapon can really hurt me' is certainly true but all this pretending it's an instant OHKO weapon in all the circumstances ever is claptrap.
Quote:
Also, armor doesn't turn into air after a nade, letting one nacked with 175 Shp.
In point of fact, it pretty much does. Practically all grenades (barring the sleek, but when was the last time you saw that used?) now do 720 damage to armour, and more if they're airbursted correctly.
More importantly, locus grenades can actually kill you. Flux grenades, no matter how many go off next to you, won't kill you.
Quote:
Shield can't be loaded up instantly from a comp.hive, KR hive, rep tool, while standing under fire....
The regen of shields is a balance??
This requires the following:
A) You stand in a near-fixed position.
B) You are reliant on multiple easily destructible equipment.
C) You need multiple players.
A and B mean your setup is extremely vulnerable to both flux and locus grenades, the latter of which are highly likely to kill you and possibly your logi, and additionally your setup can be broken up by a single stray shot landing on a hive. C means you are actively taking guns off the field.
Meanwhile, shield tanks can regenerate faster than an armour tank standing on a prototype triage hive, with a logi... if they pay the terrible, terrible price of having to wait an entire second. They do not require attendant players. They do not require you to stand still.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 11:54:00 -
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Georgia Xavier wrote:I'm going to make a not so very thought out suggestion here.
How about we give each race more passive armor regen?
Cal:1
Min:1
Gal:2 or 3
Amarr:2
These are assault suits by the way
What is that intended to achieve?
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:01:00 -
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Ripley Riley wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:What is that intended to achieve? I believe it is intended to slightly reduce the gap in repair times between armor and shields.
That mostly stems from the percentage based nature of shield regen modules, IMHO. A buff of a couple of points on the base wouldn't change much as dropsuit armour repair modules, the primary source of regeneration for armour tanks, are not percentage based.
Consider a three-rep regen tank. Those three reppers bring in a shade over 27 HP/s on their own. Even the highest base rep amounts, at 5 HP/s, IIRC, do not even begin to compete with those numbers.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 12:16:00 -
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Ripley Riley wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:That mostly stems from the percentage based nature of shield regen modules, IMHO. A buff of a couple of points on the base wouldn't change much as dropsuit armour repair modules, the primary source of regeneration for armour tanks, are not percentage based.
Consider a three-rep regen tank. Those three reppers bring in a shade over 27 HP/s on their own. Even the highest base rep amounts, at 5 HP/s, IIRC, do not even begin to compete with those numbers. I hate to immediately jump at the idea of making a new module, but the Nanite Pump high-slot module Pokey suggested might help. It suggests that the armor repair rate be increased by a percentage.
I'm not sure that's a great idea, though.
Either it's a bad module in which case damage mods and myofibrils out compete it, or it shores up armour tanks to the extent that they may become really quite strong.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.13 16:27:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Or will armor tankers continue to be punished for using plates... Fun fact: shield users still get penalized for using extenders and energizers. Nobody cares.
Mostly because the penalty is negligible and not something to care about.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.14 12:27:00 -
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Alena Asakura wrote:
Shields and armour are completely different things. I wouldn't compare them at all. Shields are fast regen but collapse in an instant with EM attacks (flux, laser), where armour is much hardier, but repairs slowly. That's in fact the key to it - shields regen, armour repairs, and therein lies the issue. You can't compare two things that are so completely different. The best shields will not necessarily be huge, but will have fast regen. Armour, however, has to be more "solid".
I disagree entirely with the notion that they're incomparable.
It's not a simple comparison - just saying 'this has more HP than that therefore it is better' is hardly accurate - but being a complex comparison doesn't mean they can't be compared at all, you just need to break it down into pieces.
Alena Asakura wrote:
That's in fact the key to it - shields regen, armour repairs, and therein lies the issue. You can't compare two things that are so completely different.
Is that so different, honestly? Aside from the different words you chose to use to describe the action of recovering HP (which are interchangeable, really) is it so fundamentally different? They both recover HP in ticks. They're both the same mechanic, really, one just has a delay and the other doesn't.
Quote:Shields are fast regen but collapse in an instant with EM attacks (flux, laser), where armour is much hardier but repairs slowly.
Does armour not potentially collapse in an instant as well? Bar the heaviest tanks (sentinels) no matter how you tank your dropsuit, when the right weapons are brought to bear it'll get vaporised. Airburst a locus grenade, even a standard one, over an armour suit and it'll get hit with 720 damage that can actually kill rather than damage, like a flux.
I suppose you could say that armour does indeed regen slowly compared to shields right now, but if you really want to run a rep fit it can regen at a fairly respectable rate without bringing outside assistance into the equation.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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Arkena Wyrnspire
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:53:00 -
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Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Armor tanking has been and still is the superior of the two. "Punished for using plates" lol....How??? Ferroscale plates have no movement penalty and they yield more hp than shield extenders, while utilizing less cpu/pg at the same time.
Why do people always insist on directly comparing these two based purely on HP? The inherent regen of shields is the counterbalance to this. Nobody fits 5x ferros because it's a completely awful fit, while 5x extenders is actually viable. Why? Because shields actually have a reasonable regen rate built-in while armour has a pitiful base regen. Regenerating 2 health a second out of a health pool of 700 is simply a stupid fit, while having a delayed regen of ~40 HP/s works and can work well, even. Directly comparing ferros with shield extenders and going 'armour is better becuz it has big numbers' is a moronic comparison. Noone fits 5 shields either...not only because it'll cost 55 pg but because it is not effective either. You can fit 5 ferroscales and a triage and be ready to go.
If by 'go' you mean 'die horribly against the first competent opponent' then yes, you can be 'ready to go' with a fit that horrible.
Fitting 5x ferros and triage hives leaves you with basically no regen (let's not pretend that 2 HP/s is going to make any difference) and makes you entirely reliant on a limited and fragile deployable which tethers you to a point if you want to use it. Oh, and it takes just as much PG as the 5x shield extender fit that you think is so terrible.
Few people fit 5x shield extenders because it is indeed a poor fit. It is still, however, more viable than the frankly moronic 5x ferroscales.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
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